OT: Animal Crackers censored?

[Arnie Bernstein]

Regarding the upcoming DVD box set of the Marx Bros. Paramount films:
in the VHS & broadcast versions of Animal Crackers, there's a line cut
from the Hooray for Captain Spaulding song. The original exchange
goes likes this:

Margaret Dumont: He is the only white man who covered every acre.

Groucho: I think I'll try and make her

Guests: Hooray, hooray, hooray!

In the VHS & broadcast versions, the Groucho line is cut out. You can
hear the jump in the music; it really sounds off! I remember my days
as a a mere boy and a beardless youth, seeing Animal Crackers in its
1974 theatrical rerelease. The line definitely was there (and it's in
the Anobile frame by frame book of the film too, as I recall)

Anybody know if this line is rightfully being restored to the DVD
rerelease in November?

Thanks,

Arnie Bernstein
www.arniebernstein.com

"I find television very educational. Every time someone switches it on
I go into another room and read a good book."
   —Groucho Marx—

[Eric Grayson]

As far as I know, this line was always cut. I know there are 35mms of
the 1974 theatrical issue in private hands, but I don't have one.
There are 16mms of that same issue (printed under the title Cracker
Barrel for some reason), taken from the same material, and they are cut
as well.

Animal Crackers seems to be assembled from a test-cut nitrate print
rather than a real release print. The continuity problems in it
shouldn't be there and the little black slugs in the older version
represent stock splices in the 16mm, indicating that the 35mm it was
copied from had splices or reel changes there.

There was a contemporaneous recording released on vinyl of the whole
song by Frank Ferrante (I think that's his name), and it had the line
left in. Perhaps that's what you heard??

Eric

Post by Arnie Bernstein
in the VHS & broadcast versions of Animal Crackers, there's a line cut
from the Hooray for Captain Spaulding song. The original exchange
Margaret Dumont: He is the only white man who covered every acre.
Groucho: I think I'll try and make her
Guests: Hooray, hooray, hooray!
In the VHS & broadcast versions, the Groucho line is cut out. You can
hear the jump in the music; it really sounds off! I remember my days
as a a mere boy and a beardless youth, seeing Animal Crackers in its
1974 theatrical rerelease. The line definitely was there (and it's in
the Anobile frame by frame book of the film too, as I recall)
Anybody know if this line is rightfully being restored to the DVD
rerelease in November?
Thanks,
Arnie Bernstein
www.arniebernstein.com
"I find television very educational. Every time someone switches it on
I go into another room and read a good book."
   —Groucho Marx—

[Bobster123]

Post by Arnie Bernstein
Anybody know if this line is rightfully being restored to the DVD
rerelease in November?

Someone on the Marx Bros. newsgroup that has an advance copy of the new
Universal box set says that the line is still missing.

Some other things that were mentioned in that newsgroup about the new release:
1) HORSE FEATHERS still has the splicy stateroom scene, but the splices have
been cleaned-up a bit

2) ANIMAL CRACKERS looks noticeably better than the VHS release, and COCONUTS
looks a bit better.

Go to "alt.comedy.marx-bros" to read more.

[Perry Shields]

I concur. Saw this several times in 1974 and the line was intact.

Perry

Post by Arnie Bernstein
in the VHS & broadcast versions of Animal Crackers, there's a line cut
from the Hooray for Captain Spaulding song. The original exchange
Margaret Dumont: He is the only white man who covered every acre.
Groucho: I think I'll try and make her
Guests: Hooray, hooray, hooray!
In the VHS & broadcast versions, the Groucho line is cut out. You can
hear the jump in the music; it really sounds off! I remember my days
as a a mere boy and a beardless youth, seeing Animal Crackers in its
1974 theatrical rerelease. The line definitely was there (and it's in
the Anobile frame by frame book of the film too, as I recall)
Anybody know if this line is rightfully being restored to the DVD
rerelease in November?
Thanks,
Arnie Bernstein
www.arniebernstein.com
"I find television very educational. Every time someone switches it on
I go into another room and read a good book."
-Groucho Marx-

[Kay Lhota]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[David P. Hayes]

Post by Kay Lhota
[...]
Richard Anobile's book "Hooray for Captain Spaulding" includes the line in the
song because it belongs, not because it still exists in film or

soundtrack.

Anobile put in dialogue he knew was in the film, even when it was missing
from the print he viewed, because he used a continuity script. Later in the
book "Hooray For Captain Spalding," in presenting frames and dialogue from
Spalding's dictation of a letter which Zeppo puts to paper, Spalding makes
some references to Elsie the Cow (a trademark of Borden). Anobile presents
these exchanges just as he does the other dialogue in the scene, but in
small type he mentions in an editors note that these exchanges appear in the
continuity script but not in any print of the film.

These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

--
David Hayes

remove the director name to get a usable address

[Eric Grayson]

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

This makes sense. Another "edit" is the clearly painted-out logo on
the insecticide can that Harpo uses. It's probably Flit, which Chico
refers to, but the corporate logo is not seen in the film, even though
I suspect it was originally there.

Eric

[Hal Erickson]

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

Has anyone ever noticed that, at the very end of ANIMAL CRACKERS, the
exit music comes to a close and you can faintly heard someone saying
"N.G." (as in "That take was no good")?

Can it be that the sound track of ANIMAL CRACKERS was taken from that
"N.G." source and the picture negative was taken from another
source (including one of Chico's lines to Lillian Roth in their first
scene together) and THAT is why certain bits of dialogue have never
been restored?

I remember reading somewhere that A.C. was not reissued to TV in the
1950s because its soundtrack and negative were separately
"owned" by different people. This apparently explains
why the sound track could be used on that Gary Owens-narrated LP long
before the official theatrical rerelease in 1974 (of course, most of
us were able to see bootlegged prints of the film on several occasions
before that.)

The only time I ever saw any scenes from ANIMAL CRACKERS on TV during
the 1960s was in one of the "Wayne and Schuster Take an Affectionate
Look At..." specials, coproduced by MCA and CBC and shown on Canadian
television before their CBS "debuts" in 1966. Could be that the
ownership and copyright problems didn't affect exhbition of ANIMAL
CRACKERS in Canada--just as HELLZAPOPPIN', which likewise currently
resides in limbo because of a dispute over ownership, has popped on
Canadian TV in recent years (after a desultory showing on AMC sometime
in the early 1990s).

-Hal E

[David P. Hayes]

Post by Hal Erickson
[...]
I remember reading somewhere that A.C. was not reissued to TV in the
1950s because its soundtrack and negative were separately
"owned" by different people. This apparently explains
why the sound track could be used on that Gary Owens-narrated LP long
before the official theatrical rerelease in 1974 (of course, most of
us were able to see bootlegged prints of the film on several occasions
before that.)

The introduction to the aforementioned Richard Anobile book "Hooray for
Captain Spalding" does state that MCA owned the picture but not the
soundtrack and that the George S. Kaufman Estate owned the rights to the
soundtrack but not the picture. This being said, I suspect that Anobile was
writing metaphorically. To me, such a statement means that MCA in practical
terms did not own the soundtrack because the soundtrack could not be
presented by MCA without MCA violating the underlying copyright to the
original theatrical play.

Given the nature of 35mm film with composite picture and optical soundtrack,
such a reading of Anobile's statement seems the likeliest.

A remark late in being shared in this thread: I saw the theatrical reissue
of "Animal Crackers" in 1974 in two different cities and remember noticing
the jump cut in the "Captain Spalding" song and I recall too recognizing
that the flow of the melody was disrupted by what was obviously a stanza
shorter than the others.

--
David Hayes

remove the director name to get a usable address

[Max Nineteennineteen]

Post by Hal Erickson

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

Has anyone ever noticed that, at the very end of ANIMAL CRACKERS, the
exit music comes to a close and you can faintly heard someone saying
"N.G." (as in "That take was no good")?
Can it be that the sound track of ANIMAL CRACKERS was taken from that
"N.G." source and the picture negative was taken from another
source (including one of Chico's lines to Lillian Roth in their first
scene together) and THAT is why certain bits of dialogue have never
been restored?

Surely the N.G. refers only to that shot, not the whole movie. They
wouldn't have assembled the entire movie out of N.G. material.

[Hal Erickson]

Post by Max Nineteennineteen

Post by Hal Erickson

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

Has anyone ever noticed that, at the very end of ANIMAL CRACKERS, the
exit music comes to a close and you can faintly heard someone saying
"N.G." (as in "That take was no good")?
Can it be that the sound track of ANIMAL CRACKERS was taken from that
"N.G." source and the picture negative was taken from another
source (including one of Chico's lines to Lillian Roth in their first
scene together) and THAT is why certain bits of dialogue have never
been restored?

Surely the N.G. refers only to that shot, not the whole movie. They
wouldn't have assembled the entire movie out of N.G. material.

Maybe...or maybe all they had to work with was the "bad" soundtrack
(I've never really heard a good one for ANIMAL CRACKERS). Sometimes
restoration has to be done with the tools at hand. Note how some of
the early Fox talkies, like DELICIOUS and SOUP TO NUTS, apparently
exist only in "rough cut" form, with obvious splices and soundtrack
gaffes. Also, much of the STAR IS BORN restoration was done with
alternate and "cover" takes.

--Hal E

[Max Nineteennineteen]

Post by Hal Erickson

Post by Max Nineteennineteen

Post by Hal Erickson

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

Has anyone ever noticed that, at the very end of ANIMAL CRACKERS, the
exit music comes to a close and you can faintly heard someone saying
"N.G." (as in "That take was no good")?
Can it be that the sound track of ANIMAL CRACKERS was taken from that
"N.G." source and the picture negative was taken from another
source (including one of Chico's lines to Lillian Roth in their first
scene together) and THAT is why certain bits of dialogue have never
been restored?

Surely the N.G. refers only to that shot, not the whole movie. They
wouldn't have assembled the entire movie out of N.G. material.

Maybe...or maybe all they had to work with was the "bad" soundtrack
(I've never really heard a good one for ANIMAL CRACKERS). Sometimes
restoration has to be done with the tools at hand. Note how some of
the early Fox talkies, like DELICIOUS and SOUP TO NUTS, apparently
exist only in "rough cut" form, with obvious splices and soundtrack
gaffes. Also, much of the STAR IS BORN restoration was done with
alternate and "cover" takes.

That would make a lot more sense than Paramount making the movie from
N.G. material in the first place, but did Animal Crackers require that
kind of restoration?

[Eric Grayson]

Post by Max Nineteennineteen
That would make a lot more sense than Paramount making the movie from
N.G. material in the first place, but did Animal Crackers require that
kind of restoration?

I reiterate my opinion that the surviving print of Animal Crackers is
from some sort of test print or pre-release material. The DVD has been
corrected but the laserdiscs used to have long (2-3 sec) black leader
slugs in them that were standard for getting errant soundtracks in sync
in those days. Furthermore, there are a number of continuity errors in
the film (mostly not at 10 minute marks of reel changes) that shouldn't
be there, most notably the shot in which Groucho gets out of the
chariot (or whatever) twice at the beginning of the film.

You're not the only person to notice the NG there...

I wonder if Animal Crackers didn't survive in an original 1930s ish
release print. Someone out there may know more...

[Precode]

Post by Hal Erickson

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

Has anyone ever noticed that, at the very end of ANIMAL CRACKERS, the
exit music comes to a close and you can faintly heard someone saying
"N.G." (as in "That take was no good")?
Can it be that the sound track of ANIMAL CRACKERS was taken from that
"N.G." source and the picture negative was taken from another
source (including one of Chico's lines to Lillian Roth in their first
scene together) and THAT is why certain bits of dialogue have never
been restored?
I remember reading somewhere that A.C. was not reissued to TV in the
1950s because its soundtrack and negative were separately
"owned" by different people. This apparently explains
why the sound track could be used on that Gary Owens-narrated LP long
before the official theatrical rerelease in 1974 (of course, most of
us were able to see bootlegged prints of the film on several occasions
before that.)
The only time I ever saw any scenes from ANIMAL CRACKERS on TV during
the 1960s was in one of the "Wayne and Schuster Take an Affectionate
Look At..." specials, coproduced by MCA and CBC and shown on Canadian
television before their CBS "debuts" in 1966. Could be that the
ownership and copyright problems didn't affect exhbition of ANIMAL
CRACKERS in Canada--just as HELLZAPOPPIN', which likewise currently
resides in limbo because of a dispute over ownership, has popped on
Canadian TV in recent years (after a desultory showing on AMC sometime
in the early 1990s).
-Hal E

Yes, it was still available in Canada. My college film society thought
we were clever and tried to book it through Universal 16's Toronto
office, but they were way ahead of us and politely declined.

Mike S.
(how I got in my pajamas, I'll never know)

[James Roots]

Post by Precode

Post by Hal Erickson

Post by David P. Hayes
These exchanges, like the "I think I'll try and make her" line, may have
been removed for the 1936 reissue. In the case of these latter cuts,
though, the reason may have had more to do with upsetting a corporation on a
matter of trademark rather than of violating the Production Code. Of
course, it's also possible that a continuity script was prepared before
legal counsel at Paramount saw the film in 1930 and advised deletions that
might have opened Paramount to possible legal repercussions.

Has anyone ever noticed that, at the very end of ANIMAL CRACKERS, the
exit music comes to a close and you can faintly heard someone saying
"N.G." (as in "That take was no good")?
Can it be that the sound track of ANIMAL CRACKERS was taken from that
"N.G." source and the picture negative was taken from another
source (including one of Chico's lines to Lillian Roth in their first
scene together) and THAT is why certain bits of dialogue have never
been restored?
I remember reading somewhere that A.C. was not reissued to TV in the
1950s because its soundtrack and negative were separately
"owned" by different people. This apparently explains
why the sound track could be used on that Gary Owens-narrated LP long
before the official theatrical rerelease in 1974 (of course, most of
us were able to see bootlegged prints of the film on several occasions
before that.)
The only time I ever saw any scenes from ANIMAL CRACKERS on TV during
the 1960s was in one of the "Wayne and Schuster Take an Affectionate
Look At..." specials, coproduced by MCA and CBC and shown on Canadian
television before their CBS "debuts" in 1966. Could be that the
ownership and copyright problems didn't affect exhbition of ANIMAL
CRACKERS in Canada--just as HELLZAPOPPIN', which likewise currently
resides in limbo because of a dispute over ownership, has popped on
Canadian TV in recent years (after a desultory showing on AMC sometime
in the early 1990s).
-Hal E

Yes, it was still available in Canada. My college film society thought
we were clever and tried to book it through Universal 16's Toronto
office, but they were way ahead of us and politely declined.

Really? I'll have to dig out my copy some day and check...

Jim
(not just NG but NDG)

[s***@yahoo.com]

So what's the initial word on this set?

I've heard rumors that the prints are the same crappy ones that have been
distributed on VHS and previous DVDs. Is that the case?

If so, that's very disappointing.

If we can't get decent releases of the Marx Brothers' greatest pictures ...
well, it's just distressing.

Brett